---
title: "aadhar.sh/lwe/knots · knots"
description: "Why your shoelaces come undone, at MSN-chat pace: granny versus square, the Ian knot, and a live demo where one crossing locks and the other slips."
path: "/lwe/knots"
section: "lwe"
kind: "content"
updated: "2026-06-22"
source: "https://aadhar.sh/lwe/knots"
---

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# **knots**Online, granny vs square, and the Ian knot

Learning With Errors  
two crossings

**Starter draft.** The granny-versus-square structure is standard knot lore; the demo draws only a schematic of the two crossings. Background paraphrased from [Ian's Shoelace Site](https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/ianknot.htm) and Wikipedia.

**aadharsh**21:10

people swear by the "Ian knot" as the world's fastest [shoelace knot][shoelace-knot], and that it stops their laces coming undone. is there real structure here or is it folklore?

**knots**21:10

Real structure, and it is the same argument as the oldest knot in the book: [granny][granny-knot] versus square. A knot like this is basically two crossings. If the second crossing mirrors the first you get a [square (reef) knot][reef-knot] that seats flat and holds. If the second repeats the first you get a granny that capsizes and slips. If your laces keep falling open, you're probably tying a granny bow without knowing it.

granny vs square · toggle the second crossing, then pull

Two ropes, two crossings. The only difference between a square knot and a granny is the handedness of the second crossing. Toggle it, then pull the ends.

**Square (reef).** The second crossing mirrors the first, so the knot seats flat and each rope nips the other. Pull and it locks.

**aadharsh**21:12

huh, the only difference is the [handedness][chirality] of the second crossing. so my laces slip because I cross the same way twice?

**knots**21:12

Exactly. The standard bow is cross, loop, wrap, pull. If your starting cross and your wrapping loop go the same way, you have built a granny bow: it sits diagonally across the shoe and works loose. Reverse just one of the two and you get a square bow that sits straight across and stays put. Same moves, opposite handedness on the second step.

**aadharsh**21:13

ok so where does the Ian knot come in?

**knots**21:13

The Ian knot (Ian Fieggen's) is a speed method that lands on the same knot. You form a loop in each hand at the same time and pass them through each other in one motion, where the standard bow makes one loop and wraps the other lace around it. Tied with the right handedness it gives the same square bow, just much faster. His Secure variant adds a tuck for laces that still wander.

[\[src\]](https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/ianknot.htm)

**aadharsh**21:14

and bunny ears? that's what I learned as a kid.

**knots**21:14

Bunny ears makes both loops first, then ties the two like ropes. It is easy to learn and just as prone to the granny trap: tie the two ears with the same handedness you started with and you get a granny bow. Whatever method got you to the two crossings, only their handedness decides whether the knot holds.

**aadharsh**21:15

so the whole thing reduces to: make the two crossings oppose.

**knots**21:15

That is the entire trick, from a reef knot on a sail to the bow on your shoe. Cross one way, then cross back the other. Match the handedness and it slips; oppose it and it holds. Everything else is speed and style.

**aadharsh**21:16

I'm going to go re-tie my shoes. thanks.

→ [Ian's Shoelace Site](https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/ianknot.htm) · [reef knot on Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reef_knot) · [shoelace knot on Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoelace_knot) · [back to Learning With Errors](https://aadhar.sh/lwe)

end of first pass

This is a recorded conversation. Toggle and pull in the demo above.

[shoelace-knot]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoelace_knot "The bow used to tie shoes: a reef knot tied with two loops, so pulling a free end undoes it."
[granny-knot]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granny_knot "A knot made of two identical half-knots in a row. It looks like a reef knot but slips or jams under load."
[reef-knot]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reef_knot "A knot made of two opposite half-knots, right over left then left over right, that lies flat and holds. Also called a square knot."
[chirality]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality "The property of a shape that can't be turned to match its own mirror image, like a left hand and a right hand."

Source: https://aadhar.sh/lwe/knots